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View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts soul Registered: 09/14/09 Posts: 11	09/14/09 at 12:58 PM Reply with quote #1 Namaste In the Dvaita philosophical view of Vedic teachings, the soul retains its individuality thru' pralay and eternally stays an individual. What gives the 'individual' soul/AtmA its individuality or distinction when it is pure and liberated ? The subtle body cannot possibly stay after liberation, because then that would not be liberation. So what gives the soul I-ness , identity which "it" can perceive ? It is understandable that Parameshvar identifies individual pure liberated souls. But how can the soul know this ? How can the individual soul have a preference, choice, decision, action, and a role to play in the Lord's Leelas after the mind, intelligence, ego and all subtle matter is gone ? Thank You Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts soul Registered: 09/14/09 Posts: 11	09/16/09 at 03:23 PM Reply with quote #2 I think i found part of the answer in a way. The answer is to not bother about this using the material mind, material intellect and reasoning and just dive into Bhakti This is what no desires means. Krshna, i may be your worst kind of devotee, but whatever i may be, let me just be engrossed in you out of and away from worldly things, without worrying about consequenses. This itself is liberation. That is why it is said that bhakti is not a goal. Thinking about a goal means keeping expectations. A Swamiji (a devotee of Dattatreya) , has explained beautifully, that the 4 types of moksha (liberation) , [which obviously are Grace and gift from God] , are granted according to the intensity and nature of Bhakti. 1. salokya (living in Lord's abode) , 2. samipya ( Lord's close association - which i believe can be obtained right here while in this body ) , 3. sarupya ( having form similar to the Lord) 4. sayujja ( blending into the oneness of Brahman, God), In the first 3 types, the soul has a form, identity and a role to play. In sayujja moksha (4), the form and identity finally dissolves into the infinite blissful Brahman. This does not answer how the soul "knows" her identity , once out of gross and subtle body. ( Unless it means that the subtle body remains in the first 3 types of moksha , albeit devoid of the false-ego. ) What it does answer (for me at least) , is that Dvaita and Advaita are not contrary to each other. Dvaita can either lead to Advaita or stay as Dvaita, or blend as bhed-abheda. Jai Sri Krshna Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts JayaramV Registered: 06/07/07 Posts: 35	09/18/09 at 12:24 AM Reply with quote #3 What I am writing here is purely theoretical. I have not experienced oneness with soul. So this is what I heard or read or intuitively understood but not what I experienced. The concept of dvaita and advaita are purely experiential. The reason why we have several religions and several types of distinct religious experiences and approaches to self-realization is because God being unconditional in love to His devotees gives them what they seek. Since He would not say "NO" to anyone or anything, we all get away with our little desires, when we seek fulfillment through surrender and devotion. So if I seek to be one with Him in letter and spirit I will become one with Him, but if I want to become a free soul and yet remain in a state of absolute and enternal bliss, He grants it too. Also if I am so drawn into my own things and want to return to earth again and again because I have such an attachment with things and relationships, He will let me do that too. He lets the evil beings do their thing in the name of God and also the purest and highest devotees pursue their own devotion. Frankly He takes no sides, though we may wish in our own egoistic way that He should. In truth He remain on everyone's side. In the Mahabharat epic, He gave His army to the Kauravas because that was what they wanted and He fought along side the Pandavas because that was what they sought. In the Bible we have the assurance that ask and it shall be given to you. It does not say that you should ask this or that and God will give it you. It simply says ask anything with faith and conviction and it will be given to you. So If you pursue Jesus, in the end Jesus will help you go to heaven and if you pursue Krishna, He will grant you a place in Vaikuntha or oneness with Him. Similarly, if you seek a monistic type of self-realization, you will get it eventually and if you see a dualistic reunion you will get that too. In the former case He will let you become one with Him and in the latter case He would grant you the freedom to remain a free soul and yet experience His own state. This is the truth I got after deliberating upon this subject for a long time. It is also the reason why our thoughts and beliefs have the power to manifest themselves. We can talk about dvaita and advaita at the universal level as well as individual level. I focus here on the latter. According to the advaita everything is Paramatma, the transcendental universal and supreme soul. What we consider as atman or the individual soul is also paramatma or the Highest Self. According to dvaita, the individual soul (jivatma or simply atman) and the universal soul (paramatma or Brahman) are different. According to this approach, in each individual being there is an individual soul which undergoes transmigration and delusion and paramatma or witnessing soul which watches the other engaged in the samsara. The best way the individual soul can find release from bondage is by developing intense devotion towards the universal soul (paramatma). Devotion however does not arise easily. For that one has to cultivate sattva (purity) and perform obligatory duties with a sense of sacrifice and surrender acknowledging God as the doer of all action. Jayaram V Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts soul Registered: 09/14/09 Posts: 11	09/21/09 at 04:58 PM Reply with quote #4 Thanks for your reply. Yes, He certainly gives so much free will and grants our desires that sometimes makes one wonder. There are all kinds - those to who can't live without servitude, those who just want to 'be' (as in nirvikalpa samadhi) , those who just want to sing or chant, ....introverts and extroverts. As surrender varies in quality quantity and variety, we have various spiritual 'abodes'. I was pondering over the technicalities of how the pure soul stays a specific person after actually sheding mind, intellect and ego. How does it matter to me today ? It doesn't ! As long as there is me and Him. But it tells me that God Himself maintains this devotee-God pair after the final Viraj river of liberation is crossed , so to speak. Because once it is in fact crossed , who is the ONE existing, perceiving , sensing, experiencing the Leelas ? God alone. Which is fine because the bhakta has totally given him/herself to God. That is also perhaps why it is said that devotees try to please God's senses, not their own. When they eat prasad, its to please God not them. Hence, i can't help thinking whether these variations seem to be choices only while the mind-intellect-ego is there. Also, i think internal experience should weigh much more than external doctrines. Some may not agree to this. Thanks for your answer. Namaste. Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts JayaramV Registered: 06/07/07 Posts: 35	09/22/09 at 12:20 PM Reply with quote #5 Thanks for your response. I want to add a few more thoughts on this subject. Hope they would not interfere with your beliefs. It is difficult to draw conclusions about the state of the soul in its liberated condition. According to Hindu scriptures the soul is independent of and other than the mind and the body. So I believe the soul has its own ways of knowing and experiencing, not from outside in as in case of the mind and the senses but from inside out by becoming one with the essential nature of whatever it want to experience. The soul is said to be a conscious entity. It does not require Nature or its elements to be aware of experience. Its state is devoid of the earthly qualities. Since it is omniscient, it has the power to know everything without the use of energy (nature) or effort. According to dvaita, duality, that is the separation between God and His creation or between God and the individual souls, is eternal. The opposite is said to be true according to advaita. Logically speaking if advaita is correct, both Vaikuntha and Kailasa should be devoid of both freed (mukta) and eternally free (nitya) souls. The former are those who go through the cycle of births and deaths and become free by the grace of God and latter are those who have never been subject to the laws of karma and the cycle of births and deaths. But we hear descriptions of liberated souls, reaching the gates of heaven through various phases and residing there, enjoying the company of their respective Lords and experiencing the eternal bliss. From such descriptions it looks like the liberated souls experience duality but not of the egoistic and deluded kind. They seem to enjoy oneness with God by experiencing His form (rupa), qualities (lakshnas) and powers (vibhutis) in a state of unconditional love. What distinguishes them from us, perhaps, is they are devoid of the elements of Prakriti and not subject to delusion, attachment and egoism. According to Vishistadvaita, the nitya or the eternally free souls are again said to be of two kinds: the bhakta and the bhagavatas. The former serve God while the latter serve the devotees of God by assisting them in their spiritual efforts for liberation. Regards Jayaram V Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts soul Registered: 09/14/09 Posts: 11	09/28/09 at 08:15 AM Reply with quote #6 I think we were both speaking of the same thing with different perspectives. I understand your explanation, thank you, and not debating it. This is how i am understanding it. Nitya siddhas in Vaikuntha means Krshna is playing with Himself. First Adi Purush turns into Brahma for creating, Rudra for destroying , Indra, Varun, Agni for specific administrative roles ...... and jivas for playing. He restricts Himself to being 96% , 84%, 76% , 50% and also 2% of Him. All this happens outside of time and space. *Its not like a handful of Vaikunthavasis who want to do their own thing fall down ( as one theory suggests) . No. When the Supreme Lord wants to animate the world, He voluntarily enters each thing of matter that He wants to make sentient. So its really the other way around. Even the Bhagvat Mahapurana says this very clearly in the 1st Canto itself. It does not explicitly say that a temporarily baddha jIva enters the matter-body of 5 elements along with the Lord. The memory = past samskArs , gets carried over to the next birth , and acc. to RamanujAcharya, also stays in a contracted state thru' pralay (Universal destruction) . The Lord , who has made this entity sentient, faithfully and patiently stays with it throughout. Today there is my Lord and me. He is with me always. He guides, communicates, conveys, witnesses. What is this 'me' identifier ? At the moment it is the subtle body. Because the mind is there it is being used. That is all. The mind finds life without the Lord unthinkable. It sings His glories and hangs out with Him. Tomorrow, if the mind is also gone, ego wiped out, Lord alone remains - AtmA. He remembers how it was , and may or may not continue playing with Himself, according to the inclination & flavor of bhakti He experienced when embodied. He can do what He wants with this [individual-]soul-instrument, a product of His embodied experience. If the soul-instrument sings a song, Krshna hears. Krshna makes it so that the soul sings. If the soul makes a garland Krshna sees, smells and wears it. Krshna makes it so that the soul makes a garland. The fingers and toes just do their bit like stepping or writing. Eyes just do their bit - forming the image on the retina. But fingers , toes , eyes are just parts. The Supreme Person actually experiences seeing forms, hearing music , smelling flowers, tasting wonderful food, watching , dancing , experiencing emotions, and observing reactions. He simply has a wonderful time. Its like one person playing chess as 2 players. Or a 4 or n-player board game , taking turns. The controller is one of the players. He can play dumb as player 2, smart as player 3, angry as player 4, devoted as player 5, sacrificing as player 6, dormant or asleep as player 7, vAma , dakshina, in different moods. But the bottom line -- these other players "do not have a mind of their own" - not anymore. Any appearance of choice is a Leela. This perhaps explains statements like .... "Kaam = selfish pleasure ; Prem = working for God's pleasure." Bhakti and Jnana can't be seperated. Jai Sri Krshna Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts Arthur Registered: 10/08/09 Posts: 15	10/08/09 at 03:49 PM Reply with quote #7 Friends, Hello. I would first like to introduce myself. My name is Arthur Sanchez and I am very pleased to be here. I love to share what little I know with all. I hope that all the information I share is useful. Also, if I happen to be in error regarding my understanding on the nature of various issues, then I would be greatly appreciative to be corrected by the most perfect understanding. I would like to begin by speaking briefly on the nature of the soul. As I see it soul does not mean Atman. The soul is perishable because it evolves. The Atman is imperishable because it never moves, never changes. With this clarification one should be able to distinguish the Self from the soul. This is absolute viveka. With Humility, Arthur Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts soul Registered: 09/14/09 Posts: 11	10/09/09 at 04:43 PM Reply with quote #8 Thank You Arthur. It is interesting that you are saying the soul evolves. This means you are calling jIva as soul, and implying that it includes the subtle body right ? If soul is something that evolves , it means it includes the mind-intellect-ego-chitta . sUkshma SharIr. This means AtmA is ParamAtmA and soul is Jiva or JivAtmA. Now is the question of - how jIvAtmA gets defined, - whether it includes the mind (which i think it should, becs of which it can't really be eternal) , - at what point does it/she vanish/merge/cease to exist... etc. Your message seems to imply advaita of the all pervading eternal omniscient AtmA , which is what i was thinking of. For Jivas to eternally have own individuality WITHOUT the subtle body does not make sense. The only possibility i can think of with this tiny mundane mind is : "Various individual beings serving the Lord in the spiritual world" means ParamAtmA (God) playing with Himself in different roles ? Jai Sri Krshna Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts Arthur Registered: 10/08/09 Posts: 15	10/10/09 at 04:30 PM Reply with quote #9 Dear Sri Krishna, I would like to answer one of your questions by saying that it (the mind) is "eternal", but in a relative sense only. My friend, everything is eternal. "There never was a time when you (jiva) did not exist nor any of these men (jivas)" says Lord Krishna to Arjuna. That is to say, that though something may be perishable it is eternally perishable. We must strive to realize that there are "two" states of eternality, the absolutely eternal and the relatively eternal. Creation is eternal is it not? But is creation absolutely eternal? No. Brahman is absolute and relative, unevolving and evolving, unmoving and moving, uncreate and create, Self and soul. Thank you very much, my friend, for your questions. If it is alright with you, I would like to continue our discourse. Your Dear Friend, Arthur Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts Arthur Registered: 10/08/09 Posts: 15	10/11/09 at 02:48 PM Reply with quote #10 Dear Friends, Greetings. I was wondering if there was anyone who could tell me how is my thinking? I have expounded on some of Mr. Jayaram's words in an attempt to simplify and clarify the dual nature of the One. "If the Absolute is eternal and timeless and is not subject to any causative principle on the dimensions of time and space, how could there be any gap between Him and His creation? He and His creation must have happened simultaneously, without a second, without any distinction or differentiation." Not exactly. He, as absolute, and His creation did not happen simultaneously. He, as absolute, never happens. He, as absolute, simply "is". He, as absolute, is It, Existence, Knowledge and Bliss Absolute. Now, He, as Iswara, and His creation did happen simultaneously. For Iswara is relative and eternally so. I (the Absolute) created myself (the relative Brahman) in my own infinite mind (Om) by my own inscrutable power (shakti) for my own pleasure. Never forget that absolute viveka just doesn't distinguish the real from the unreal, but the absolute from the relative. My real name is Satyakama. May you all be blessed. Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts JayaramV Registered: 06/07/07 Posts: 35	10/12/09 at 03:38 AM Reply with quote #11 Dear Arthur, You seem to be an original thinker. You have grasped the essential truths concerning the unity of life and the oneness of the Absolute Self as speculated by some popular schools of Hinduism. Only the terminology and the analogy used by you to describe God, soul and creation need some revision and restatement as it may confuse those who are accustomed to some specific ways of understanding such complex subjects. The paradox about Truth is it has no sides and it is everything. So from this perspective even an untruth is Truth! We cannot say God is such and such or so and so. Any attempts to define God is to limit Him and misrepresent His omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. So what I am stating here is not meant to contradict what you or others have stated, but to provide a complementary approach to the same issues. One of the wonderful truths about Hinduism is you are right even when you are wrong for such is the awesome and holistic nature of God and His existence!   ..."everything is eternal"   If you ever happen to see people who have suffered severe TBI (traumatic brain injury) you will realize how fragile the human mind is and how ephemeral the identity and the concepts we build about ourselves and others. Our minds and bodies do not last. Anything that happens within the domain of the mind is not eternal and is not "the Truth". According to Hindu scriptures truth has to be permanent and indestructible in order to qualify as an eternal truth. All eternal truths belong to the domain of God and spirit while the relative truths belong to the domain of creation. Everything is not eternal in the sense that many undergo change and transformation. Only those which do not undergo change, which are immutable and imperishable qualify to be called eternal. Thus a stone is not eternal, while the energy hidden in it is. The body is not eternal but the soul inside it is. The mind is not eternal, but the soul consciousness hidden behind the mind and the senses is.   ..."soul does not mean Atman."   Soul and spirit are English words. Arman is the Sanskrit word used to describe the eternal imperishable and individual entity we identify as soul. An individual soul which is caught in matter or the hold of Nature is called living soul (jivatma) while a living being is referred as jiva in contrast to paramatma (eternal and supreme Self) and Siva (God or Lord of the universe). That which is free from the three impurities of ego, karma and delusion is called pure and free soul (suddhatma). A jiva or living being is made up of several parts of Nature called tattvas such as the intelligence (buddhi), consciousness (manas), ego (aham) and senses (indriyas). These are outgoing, objective and limited in their capacities. They create a veil or ignorance and delusion around the free soul and drag it into the world of desires and delusion, The situation of a soul is very much like that of a child who comes out of his house, happens to see a procession going by and becomes lost in it as he begins to watch it with excitement. For a while he forgets where he is standing, his parents and his own surroundings. An individual soul ensnared by the charms of Nature or life suffers a similar fate. A soul is truly immutable. Even when it is caught in the movements of life, it does not undergo an change, since it is intrinsically imperishable and immutable. It just gets lost as it follows the senses and grasps the sense objects. Through the practice of Yoga when an individual being manages to withdraw into himself or herself, the soul becomes aware of its temporary distractions and becomes free. It is like you wake up from a dream and realize that you were dreaming.   "Iswara, and His creation did happen simultaneously"   According to Hindu theories of creation, there is a subtle distinction between God and His creation just as there is a distinction between our physical identity and our holistic identity. God is eternal while His creation is cyclical. His creation happens recurrently from time to time and passes through predictable patterns or cycles. Creation is a part of God and so technically it is also God, but it does not enjoy the immutability, immortality and the supremacy of God. In truth it is unstable, ephemeral and chaotic, where as God is stable, imperishable and peaceful. Creation is distributive, divisive and centrifugal while God is self-absorbed, uniting and centripetal. In creation His magnetic force binds things. In the spiritual realm His love and awesome potency unites and binds all.   the dual nature of the One   In Hinduism the dispute is essentially as to the nature of relation between the individual soul and the universal soul, and whether the universal soul is the creator or not. A concurrent issue associated with this topic is the nature of relation between God and Nature, i.e. whether God created Nature or Nature exists eternally and independently along with God and souls. These discussions lead us further to the question of whether God is the creator or just a mere witness. Some think He is a passive and disinterested witness while some believe Him to be the source of all.   Is God the creator? The Buddhist perspective.   Only some schools of Hinduism and some religions that originated in the Indian subcontinent acknowledge God as the creator. According to Buddhism, for example, life originates due to the aggregation of things and disappears when the parts of a composite being are segregated. In other words things appear and disappear due to union and separation of things. It also asserts that there is no soul, just an egoistic entity that undergoes continuous transformation and the cycle of births and deaths due to its desire ridden action and inactions and its attachment with things. Life is like a river in which no two moments are alike and no two events are similar. But due to the delusion and the overwhelming ignorance that characterize our existence, we do not recognize the impermanence and the instability of our lives. So beings are constantly driven by desires and suffer from commotion and transformation. They are released from the suffering only when the cease to change through the practice of the Eightfold Path.   Appreciate you analysis and your view points. Jayaram V Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts Arthur Registered: 10/08/09 Posts: 15	10/12/09 at 12:18 PM Reply with quote #12 Dear Friend, Hello, again. You seem to have misunderstood me on some points. You are still separating the absolute from the relative, the imperishable from the perishable. But Brahman is "both", the subject and the object, the witness and the universe. Those who do not know this dual nature of Brahman cannot understand what I mean. Change is eternal, therefore, it is indestructible. There is no destroying a body. It merely takes a different form. The apparent destruction of the body is the real delusion. Nothing is ever destroyed, says Lord Krishna. Please do not be angry, but I see that you are over-intellectualizing the issue. Jayaram, only those who do not know the truth dispute it. I see the logic in what you say, but do you see my logic? Can you honestly deny, after what I have said, that the body is indestructible? Love, Arthur Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts JayaramV Registered: 06/07/07 Posts: 35	10/12/09 at 01:58 PM Reply with quote #13 I am sorry I do not have "an opinion" on this subject. I have tried to present various traditional approaches to the topic in this discussion. I know I am intellectualizing it. But honesly, all speculation is intellectualization. It belongs to the domain of the mind. Do not tell me that what you are stating is coming from beyond your mind. Change is not eternal according to many Hindu theories of creation. Change is intrinsic to creation and creation itself is temporary because the scriptures (not me) assert it be neither continuous nor immutable. When God rests after withdrawing everything into Himself, there is stillness and nothing moves, a stillness and nothingness alluded in the Vedas.(Rigveda, the hymnn of creation). This also gives rise to the speculation that God is sunya (zero) or non-existent, which is the basic premise of some atheistic schools of Hinduism. Even the Saguna Brahman, all the gods and goddesses said to disappear at the end of creation. There is also no surity that the same gods and goddesses would resurface again in the next cycle of creation, because even the divinities may faulter, incurr karma, lose their status and fall from the pedestal for such is the nature of existence. This is what we understand when we read the many stories and parables from the Hindu Puranas. I believe you are trying to convey something that is getting lost in the maze of words. For others to undertand your view point, you have to explain what in your opinion is a body and what in your opinion is the soul and how both of them can be eternal at the same time. The Bhagavadgita says the body is destructible where as the soul is not. A Destructible entity according to my understanding is one which does not exist in the same condition eternally. We are advised in our scriptures not to develop attachment with our minds and bodies because they are perishable and they are the source of pain and suffering? Do you agree with this statement? If not what is your definition of the body and the soul and how you interpret change and impermanance we experience in our daily lives? If everything is indestructible and eternal, then what is the need for spiritual effort. We are already eternal and divine even in our present condition. Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts Arthur Registered: 10/08/09 Posts: 15	10/12/09 at 07:04 PM Reply with quote #14 Dear Jayaram, I understand what you say. Jayaram, death simply means a change of form. It in no way means the cessation of existence. Destruction is apparent, not real. There never was a time when creation did not exist. There never was a time when bodies, atomic or energetic, did not exist. Reflect "deeply" on what I say. Do not let your pride get in the way. Dear friend, a body is anything that moves. For example, a vibration is a body in wave form. Once existing it can never cease to be. Everything that has ever existed is still here. This makes everything eternal. Do not blame the scriptures for your own misinterpretation and nonunderstanding. Take responsibility and humble yourself. I am not your enemy. I am your dearest friend. I am always here to assist, but you must keep an open mind. I am not here to fight with you, but to share my love and wisdom with you. Please let us continue our discourse. In Divine Friendship, Arthur Loading...
View Member ProfileFind Member's Threads Find Member's Posts JayaramV Registered: 06/07/07 Posts: 35	10/12/09 at 07:44 PM Reply with quote #15 Wow! First you ask for opinion. Then you begin to make personal statements about my getting angry, pride coming in my way and act if you are the knower and I am the ignorant. You need to tell yourself what you just tried to tell me. If you want to continue this debate you should stop making these personal comments and keep you statements about the subject matter. If you think you are right and you know all, then you should not have asked for anyone's opinion. Bodies are destructible because they are subject to death and decay. Even the elements are. Anything that undergoes transformation and change is not eternal. This is the essence of both the Gita and the Upanishads. You are also misinterpreting the meaming of the Gita. Bodies are destructible. The souls are not. Loading...

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